- I'm going to work in Woolworths.
- When I grow up, I want to be an astronaut.
- When I get married, I'd like to have two children.
- My heart's desire is to see my daddy.
- I don't want to answer that.
- This is no ordinary outing to the zoo.
It's a very special occasion.
We've brought these children together
for the very first time.
They're like any other children except that they come
from startlingly different backgrounds.
- Stop it at once!
- We've brought these children together
because we wanted a glimpse of England in the year 2000.
The shop steward and the executive of the year 2000
are now seven years old.
- In 1964, "World in Action" made "Seven Up!"
and we've been back to film these children
every seven years.
They are now 49.
- Is it important to fight, yes.
- Tony was brought up in the East End of London.
- Wanna be a jockey when I grow up.
Yeah, I wanna be a jockey when I grow up.
- At 14, he was already an apprentice
at Tommy Gosling's racing stable at Epsom.
At 15, he'd left school.
- This is a photo finish, when I rode at Newbury.
I'm the one with the white cap.
I was beaten a length and a half off third
and I had a photo finish.
- Do you regret not making it?
- Well I'd have given my right arm
at the time to become a jockey but now,
well, I wasn't good enough.
- What will you do
if you don't make it as a jockey?
- I don't know.
If I know I couldn't be one, I'd get out of the game.
Wouldn't bother.
- What do you think you would do then?
- Learn on taxis.
- At 21, he was on the knowledge
and by 28, he owned his own cab.
- It's surprising who you pick up, you see.
I once met Kojak, I picked him up.
And Warren Mitchell, Alf Garnett, you know.
- Have you got a girlfriend?
- No.
- Would you like to have a girlfriend?
- No.
You understand four Fs?
Find 'em, feed 'em and forget 'em.
The other F, I'll let you use your own discriminish.
I mean, this one, I tried to do the three Fs
but I couldn't forget her.
- I went to a discotheque.
He was in the pub earlier on,
and afterwards, we went to a discotheque
and Tony was standing there.
And I just, from there, I just,
that was it.
Couldn't get rid of him.
- We have our ups and downs, no more than anyone else.
- I think you gotta work at a marriage.
I think all marriages go through stages.
You can't stand each other.
You go through, you know,
I think, oh, god, I hate him.
I wish he'd get out.
I do.
- We've been to the edge of the cliff
and looked over a couple of times,
and we've always seemed to sort of go back,
and we've sort of stayed the course.
But I must say, I mean, it's not easy being married.
- By 42, Tony and Debbie had left the East End
and moved to Woodford in Essex.
- We were gonna put a conservatory here
but if you look along here,
we put a patio in and the pond for the fish,
but the only thing I ever done
was I planted them three trees.
Well, since you was last here, Michael,
we had small trees, if you remember.
Now, they've sort of grown a bit.
- So why are the trees singed?
- We was burning some rubbish at the back
and set light to the tree, and there we all were,
sort of like throwing all buckets of water over it,
and sadly enough, it singed the tree.
- At 49, they've taken out a second mortgage
on the London house and sunk the money
in a holiday home in Spain.
- I'm very pleased with the house.
I said the progress we made in the little space of time
that we've had to work here
and get it all sort of shipshape, I think is done, really,
to the testament of my wife Debbie.
- As per usual.
- Well, Debbie went to the furniture shop,
and she sort of picked all the furniture.
All what you see is all Debbie's choice of furniture
and her, really, sort of style.
The floor, we were led to believe
that we had a choice of tiling,
whether it's a light beige or light brown.
- That's the first I've heard that we had a choice
'cause I would have had plain.
- Well, I've just gone into the neighbours' house
and they've got all plain.
- Well, there you go.
I never got told that. - And I asked him
and he said, "It was a choice that we had
"when we suggested to buy it."
So that was where the mistake was made.
- Because you don't listen.
- Say that again.
- You don't listen.
- Can't hear you.
- Tony and Debbie still work as London cabbies.
- We sold our cabs because we are gonna spend
more time out here.
So it's not really conducive to own a cab, is it?
- No.
- Because the cab will be left out on the drive
or, you know, it's pointless,
so we just hired a cab independently now.
- I'm working harder now than I really ever have done
but I feel that it's for something.
- Tell me, son,
why do you wanna be a cab driver for, mate?
All the holidays in Spain every year
but, son, it's hard work out there.
- You're not reaching me yet.
- Not getting to you.
- No, you're not getting to me, all right?
Now be bigger.
Dominate me, all right?
- Son...
- At 28, Tony was taking acting lessons.
Now, he supplements his income with occasional TV jobs.
- Oi!
- That's all I got on me.
- Mate, if I had a pound for every time I've heard that,
I'd be a rich man.
Get him!
A guy contacted me from my agency,
from my acting agency, and I got in touch with him.
And he writes plays
and he's been inspired by your up programmes,
which go all round the world, and he saw it.
And we got together and we wrote a biographical play
all about my life story.
We took one of these episodes over to New York
and done it on a play reading.
And I got up, playing the lead role
and it just blew the roof off.
And we're looking for someone to pick it up
and put it on stage.
- Would everybody please sit round now,
get on with their work?
I don't wanna see any backs to me.
Shouldn't be anybody turning round.
Tony, do you hear as well?
Get on with your work at the front.
Tony!
Don't turn round again.
- There's only one ambition, and, really, I want a baby son.
If I see my baby son, that will be my ambition fulfilled.
No one knows that.
Only you know.
- Debbie and Tony have three children.
Nicky.
- Throw it in!
- Jody and Perri.
- Nicky's doing quite well.
He's still a French polisher.
It's an old-time profession, as you know.
And he's working for a firm,
and he's very happy in his work, isn't he?
- He's been brought up very respectful to people,
very well-mannered person,
He's a hard worker.
- Jody, I mean, at this present time,
she's just relies on us a great deal
and she's been very scarred
with a relationship that she was in.
Her relationship with her first love of her own life
was very turbulent, but he's the father of her kid.
We're gonna make sure she gets through it.
And it's been quite a strain on Debbie and I
to see her in that sort of situation.
- I'm very proud of Perri as well.
She got in the post office, and that's what's she doing.
Postman Pel, that's our postman Pel.
She loves it.
She works hard.
She's up at four in the morning.
- In the morning.
She's got a lovely boyfriend.
He loves her more than you can imagine,
and he's certainly got my blessing.
Big lad, very nice guy, loves his football.
You know, typical East End kid.
Here you go.
Aah!
Head up, son.
That's too quick.
We are the backbone for the kids, aren't we?
- Yeah, but I think your parents are anyway, you know.
Your parents are...
You never visualise anything
ever happening to your parents, do you?
You think they are forever.
- Toni's five, Harry's four, nearly five,
and little Pru,
she's nearly two. - Nearly two.
- No, three.
- She's three?
I'm an hands-on granddad.
I love my grandchildren more than you can imagine,
I'd say not my own kids, but in a different way.
It's an obsession of love, you know.
- You see these grandchildren, and they're part of you.
- No, granddad.
Don't empty that.
- They're hard work at times.
- We don't mind, though, Michael, I mean...
- 'Cause you slow down and you don't realise
you're slowing down.
- All I understand is dogs' prices,
girls, knowledge, roads, streets, squares
and mum and dad and love.
That's all I understand, that's all I wanna understand.
- By the time he was 34,
both Tony's parents had died.
- I'm at the graveside,
I'm talking to her, little things.
I've got all images running through me mind,
sayin' like, "Tony, go downstairs, get me fine weights,
"one and a penny."
And I used to go in the shop.
She used to throw the cotton in an hair curler
over the landing,
and I used to tie the cigarettes on this bit of cotton.
She used to pull 'em up, and she goes,
see her in the end,
"Thanks, Tone.
"See you after school, be good."
And that's the way it was.
- We knew my dad was terminally ill,
although having said that,
still didn't make it any easier for us.
When my dad died, I took it really hard.
I can't.
- Nellie Rose is my mum, 'cause her name is Nell,
and her mother's name's Rose,
so my Jody and all the family
were conjuring up some names that we could name it.
Jody at the finish said, "Nellie Rose",
the name of our mums.
- Sometimes, on a Saturday morning, I go to the pictures,
sometimes with my friends and sometimes with him.
- You don't.
- I do.
- She don't.
- And why did you fall in love with him?
- Don't know.
- I don't know how...
- Don't know. - You put up with me
for so long.
- I don't know how.
Sometimes, I don't know how I stand him.
Who's to say in another 10 years,
me and him might have split up.
- Quite possible.
- You don't know.
- When we filmed Debbie and Tony at 42,
the marriage seemed to be in trouble.
- I'm not proud at all to say this
but situations arise that
I have had regretful behaviour various times but through...
- You got caught, and that was it.
- That's, you know.
I'm not lying about the fact.
I mean, you could always cover it up
and suggest other things but it's true and let it be true.
- You caught him?
- Yeah.
- What happened?
- Well, it was touch and go
whether we carried on from it or not.
I did feel I wish things that were said then
was never said.
I mean, Perri wouldn't go to school for three weeks.
She wouldn't go out the door.
She was quite upset about it all
and I think it was a big shock
because you are their mum and dad.
- They're tangerines, ain't they?
We got on from there.
It's sort of seven years down the line,
and we are happy as can be now.
- Karen told me to get me knickers here.
She said they're better than Marks & Spencer's.
- Well, let's hope they're easy to get off.
- Hello!
- There's 96% English here
who bought all their houses in Spain,
and this is where they shop every Saturday.
It's just like an old Petticoat Lane Market,
sort of years ago.
How much are they, darling?
What I like is so relaxing down here, Michael.
You just walk along, and things are happening,
the music's playing.
There's an English pub there you can just go in,
and it's really home from home but with the weather.
From here, it's about 200 yards along.
There's gonna be all commercial units here.
My intentions would be to turn one of these units
into a sports bar.
We're putting all tellies round in a sports sort of way,
football shirts and all that memorabilia.
This is tomorrow for me.
This is my future here.
If I happen to get some sort of business
and I was to bring my Nicky
or bring my Jody and my Perri out here,
then I'll have the best of both worlds.
I'll have my family here,
plus, the kids could be schooled.
Well, they can get what they want, can't they?
If you have got to work for it,
and it's them who can just ask for money and get it,
and they can buy what they want.
I feel that the economy will bust within five years
because people like myself
have been giving and giving all the time.
We're hardworking, family type of people
who have contributed everything
under this Tony Blair's government.
We have to work, we have to maintain the mortgage,
we have to bring up the families,
and I feel that I've had enough.
I've had enough of working all these hours.
Congestion charges, 40 pound a week now.
Zero tolerance with the police with parking tickets.
We're paying.
Now someone's gettin' it at our expense.
- Does it make you sad
that you're gonna have to leave your roots, your country?
- I can't even go out in the East End now to have a drink.
The pubs are literally closing down.
It's other cultures are buyin' all my old tradition up.
Everyone likes their own culture,
and I'm no different from anybody else,
but being in England, if you suggest this,
you are targeted as an oddball.
Oh, you mustn't say that.
Safety by numbers, eh, is that what they call it?
- Definitely.
- On the contrary, I would say, I'm sorry.
If you don't like it, it's not to be offensive,
it's just to let you know
that my way of being brought up was all my own people,
and I like being with me own people,
and I'm a traditionalist.
How much do you want play for, fiver?
- 10 pesetas.
Whoa!
- What's the dream now?
- It is to be happy, which I am.
I am happy now, being healthy with all my family.
We all want happy and health for our family.
Anything else will be a bonus.
And that's all I really want.
And that's all I'm really after.
I don't want no more or less than that.
Oh.
Unlucky Tony.
- Unlucky. - Unlucky.
- Some people from Africa come here but they,
when they go, they put their clothes on.
- Jackie, Lynn and Sue
all grew up in the East End of London
and were friends in the same junior school.
- With this school, we do metalwork and woodwork,
and the boys do cookery.
- We had a teacher at school that his favourite ploy was,
"All you girls want to do is walk out,
"get married, have babies
"and push a pram down the street
"with a fag hanging outside your mouth."
- I think that we all could have gone
any way that we wanted to at the time
within our capabilities.
I mean, we just we chose our own jobs.
But we only had a limited choice anyway.
I mean, truth be told, I mean we...
- Yes, we did have
a limited choice. - We didn't have a choice
of private education
because they couldn't have afforded it anyway.
- Change is too much, Mike.
Our lives are changing far too much, all of us.
- Well, to be honest,
when you look at the seven-year-old us,
it's difficult to believe it is us.
I mean, it's like it's someone else you're looking at,
this little cute thing.
I mean, I can't remember being...
- Well, I wasn't cute.
I would like to get married when I grow up.
Well, I don't know what sort of boy
but I think one that.
- Oh, no.
- So, that's not got a lot of money
but he has got some money, not a lot.
- Have you got any boyfriends?
- That's personal, innit?
- By the time she was 21, Jackie had married Mick
and moved to the outskirts of London.
- It was horrific, really,
what happened to the wedding cake.
I mean, it was sitting right in between Mick and myself
when suddenly, the columns just completely gave way
and it just all sort of fell into one.
I would say on average, 19 is probably too young.
- By 35, she was divorced.
- We decided ourselves, I mean just between the two of us,
we knew it wasn't going any further.
We both knew, I think, that at the end of the day,
we would be happier leading our own lives.
Hey, Jackie.
- She and Mick had decided early on
that they didn't want children.
- Sometimes feel like really sick.
- Basically, I would say because I'm far too selfish.
I enjoy doing what I want when I want and how I want,
and certainly at the moment,
I can't see any way around that.
Oh.
And this one on.
Here we go.
Oh, yeah.
Had a brief but very sweet relationship,
the result of which was Charlie.
Oi, give us a cuddle.
I don't really want Charlie to be an only.
I'd love him to have brothers and sisters,
but not necessarily loads of 'em.
Just, you know, one would do, actually.
Right, Charlie, there's yours.
And please eat it all up.
- Oh.
- And James.
- Thanks, mum.
- Good boy.
And last but not least.
Gonna eat that one for me?
- After her relationship
with Charlie's father ended, she met Ian,
and they moved to Scotland and had two more sons.
- James.
- All right.
- By 42, they had split up.
- Lee.
- Go on, Lee, go and get 'em.
- At 49, despite the split,
the family all live in the same area of Scotland.
- There's your dad!
Lee and Charlie's birthdays are only a month apart,
so we tend to do something in between
so that we celebrate both their birthdays.
So we usually go somewhere like amusement park.
- That Lee's got a lot of nerve, hasn't he?
- And a little bit of bravado, I think.
Because his older brothers had said no,
I think he decided, I'm gonna do this one.
- Yeah!
Whoo!
- Has Charlie shown any interest as to his father?
- No.
Ian's his father as far as he's concerned.
He knows and the other boy knows,
the whole family know that biologically, he's not,
but in every respect, Ian is his father,
always has been.
He just done everything with him, been everything to him,
taught him everything.
- What would you do
if you had lots of money, about two pounds?
- I would buy meself a new nice house,
you know, one that's all nice and comfy.
- Oh, quite like that.
- Jackie suffers from rheumatoid arthritis
and lives off disability benefit.
How is money for you?
- Could do with more, as just about everybody would say,
but we manage.
We cut our cloth accordingly.
You've got X amount, and that's what you do.
I can imagine you in that.
- Has Liz got anything to do with that?
- Liz has always got something to do with that.
Ian's her son, but she also says that I'm here
and she's got three grandchildren here
that she loves dearly, and she will be there for us.
James has just had a trip to Alton Towers with the school.
Then suddenly, she'll say,
"You pay the trip, I'll give him his spending money",
Which is brilliant because it just makes life easier for me.
- Now, you've moved in the last seven years.
Tell me about that.
- Because of the arthritis that I've got,
I needed to come to the ground floor.
And this particular area that I'm in now
is an area that I like.
It's close to Liz, my mother-in-law,
so from that point of view, it suits.
The school's across the road for the boys, good neighbours,
which makes a difference wherever your property is.
It's how the East End used to be about 30 years ago.
Doors used to be open,
the neighbours all watched for each other.
If one neighbour had a problem,
the other neighbours helped out.
That's how it is here.
That's what this place is like, it's like a village.
- 80, 85, 90...
- We deal with the problems with the boys
as and when they arise.
I mean, you've always got the problem of drink
and drugs and smoking and not smoking
and that sort of thing.
I mean, Charlie's of an age now where I can't mother him
but I can't be his friend, either.
He wants to work, he wants to leave school,
and he wants to get an apprenticeship to car mechanics
but the chances of him doing that are probably very slim.
- Hey, some... - Lee, take your time, babe.
You'll make yourself ill.
- Don't care.
- James tends to be a bit of a computer freak.
He wants to produce and make his own games.
- That looks just like your brain, mush.
- Lee tends to be, like, the outspoken one
and a bit like I was at his age, really.
In fact, he's very much like I was at his age.
- Is that a worry?
- I think that's terrible.
How dare you say that to me?
Is that a worry?
Why would that be a worry?
Do you think I've turned out badly?
- No, but sometimes when you look at yourself,
you don't always see things you like in yourself,
and then you see them in your child and you think...
- Yeah, but I never said he'd picked up all of my traits.
I actually think he's picked up probably the best.
If you're not gonna play nicely,
right, go to bed, then.
- No!
- He has a temper that isn't as bad as when he was younger,
but it is something that he knows about
and he tries very hard to control.
- Does your temper get you into trouble?
- You're probably the best one to answer that, does it?
I mean, you and I have had arguments on occasions.
- Did you meet enough men
before you decided who to marry?
- I mean, what do you mean by settle down?
I mean, if you think that getting married,
as far as we're concerned, is a case of going to work,
come home, cook tea for hubby, going to bed,
getting up, going to work, you're totally mistaken.
The whole thing you...
- I like it when you shout at me.
- I'm not sure you do, really.
I mean I don't know.
What happened at 21?
You asked me if I'd had enough experience with men
before I got married,
and I thought that was actually an insulting question,
and I got very angry,
and we actually stopped filming because of it.
And if you look at the tapes of me at 21,
I am sitting, and to all intents and purposes,
I might as well have not been there.
But I was really angry that you even thought you could get,
you wouldn't have asked
some of the other people in this programme that question.
You will edit this programme as you see fit.
I've got no control over that.
You definitely come across as this is your idea
of what you want to do and how you see us,
and that's how you portray us.
This one maybe, maybe the first one that's about us
rather than about your perception of us.
- So how up to now have I got you wrong?
- How have you got me wrong?
The last one was very much based on
the sympathy and the illness that I've got
and what I may or may not be able to do.
It should have been about what I can do,
what I am doing, what I will do.
Don't make that mistake, Mike.
I am no way,
I am down and I am depressed about my illness,
but I'm certainly not down and depressed about my life.
And there are a lot of the times
that I sit and I cringe when I watch those programmes,
not just for me, but for other people.
You can ask me about Ian, and you know full well
I'm gonna say to you it's none of your business,
I'm not talking about it.
Now, there are people in this programme that don't do that,
that quite of their own free will,
will talk about their marriages or their divorces
or the state of their lives
but I don't think you should be into that.
I don't think you should even be asking that.
- It's part of people's lives,
and this programme is about people's lives.
- Yeah, but that's,
see, to me, that's a part of my life
that will never go on this programme.
You know I'd married, my ex-husband never took part in this.
My partner now will never take part in this.
- But that's not my fault.
- No, but that's because that's the way I want it.
But it still doesn't stop you
trying to get that information from me.
- So what would you like to talk about
if you want me to represent you?
We've talked a bit about the children.
- What I want to do.
What I hope to do.
I just don't want that personal conversation.
- Okay, well, let's talk about that,
what you hope to do and what you hope for the boys.
- What I hope to do.
I'd like to go back to school
so that I can hold a conversation with anybody in the world
and know what I'm talking about.
So that I'm not stuck, I know a little bit about that
but I don't really know enough.
I'd love to know...
Actually, I'd really love to start my education
all over again.
My mum, 'cause she got five girls,
she had seven years' bad luck
that's why she's got five girls.
I'd like to be able to have a happy family.
I mean, I know that it's not possible
to be happy all the time,
but as much of the time that it was possible.
I don't know what Suzy's had.
What's Suzy had that I haven't had?
I mean, until I know that...
- Are you different
from what I should have expected
at seven and 14 and 21?
- Maybe not enough, but I've got it.
I think I'm actually more intelligent
than you thought I would be.
I have reached a level
in my life that I'm happy with,
and I enjoy being, I enjoy being me
but I don't think you ever really expected me
to turn out the way I have.
If we did all love Geoffrey
and we all want to marry him.
- Yeah.
- I think I know the one that he likes best, and that's her.
- I don't think I'd get married too early.
I'd like to have a full life first and...
- I'd like to enjoy
myself before I... - Meet people and, yeah.
Before you can commit yourself to a family.
Marriage means a different thing to me.
I've still got my ideals about marriage.
I don't know what it's all about.
- Sue was 24 when she married Billy.
They had two children, William and Catherine.
- I think that to get married young,
there must be things that you miss.
You must miss that crucial stage of being yourself
because the minute you get married,
you're no longer a single being.
You're a partnership, and that should be the idea behind it.
- By the time she was 34,
she and Billy had divorced.
- I've never sat down and thought, well, what was it?
Was it this, was it that?
I just knew it wasn't working.
There have been relationships when I could have settled
but they didn't feel quite right,
so I've always come away and pulled away
and just waited until the right one come along,
if they ever do.
♪ Don't you remember you told me you loved me, baby ♪
♪ You said you'd be coming back ♪
- At 42, when we filmed Sue in the karaoke bar,
she brought Glen along to watch her sing.
♪ Baby, baby, baby, oh, baby ♪
We've just met and things are going well,
but now obviously things have gone very well.
- Is this love?
- Oh, I think so, yeah.
I mean, we've known each other for a long, long time
before the seven years,
and we've always, always liked each other.
- He's good looking.
- He's very good looking.
He's not bad, is he?
Everyone says he looks like Paul Weller.
Whether that's true or not,
especially now he's growing his hair.
- Susan most of all likes Lesley.
- Do I? - I mean before.
- You said.
She keeps changing her mind, though.
- Yeah, I don't know which one, really.
'Cause everything's not that cut and dried.
It's not either a career or family or,
but it's what's in the middle.
Am I just gonna carry on as I am now for,
and end up on a shelf or am I just gonna get married,
could be any day?
I've been married, and I've not got that urgency.
Glen, we sort of say maybe we will.
We're engaged, we're committed.
We've bought a house together,
and to me, that's a big commitment.
Every house needs money spending on it when you move in.
To have a wedding, you gotta put some cash into it.
When I got married,
the primary reason was because I wanted to have a child.
The two, to me, went together.
- Have you and Glen
thought of having your own child?
- Well, Glen got with me when we got together,
I should say, when I was in my 40s,
and you don't have a baby
when you've just started a relationship.
I didn't want to do all that again.
I would have loved to have had a baby with him
'cause he would make a wonderful parent
but the timing was off.
- So she's your baby?
- She's my new baby, yeah.
Yeah, my kids are my babies, but she's my new baby.
She's our baby, mine and Glen's.
She's a wonderful terrier.
She's got such character.
- What does she do?
- Well, she watches TV with us.
She's got her own favourite programmes.
And she adores Rolf Harris,
absolutely adores "Animal Hospital".
She's at the top of the house, and the music comes on,
she runs down the stairs and puts herself in front of the TV
for Rolf Harris.
- So, the house looks nice.
You pleased with it?
- I am very pleased with it.
It's a lovely step for us.
We feel like we've got more space around us,
and we've got to do everything inside,
but we can build on it, and that's what we want.
I've been promising to have a housewarming party
since we've moved in.
We've been here four months now,
so I thought it was about time we did that.
So people are just starting to arrive now.
- So, you left the East End, why?
- Well, I've always wanted to move out,
but you don't do that or the opportunity isn't there
when you are own your own with two kids.
I wish I had done it before.
The timing, it's timing, you know.
Now was the right time, obviously.
The East End has changed, it's changed a lot.
- He was even playing tie the tooth.
- Mum comes down to me.
It's so easy for them.
They can jump on a train,
and the station's within walking distance
so it's worked out wonderfully well.
- Well, some people are just born into rich families
and they're lucky.
- I don't see why they should have the luck
when people have worked all their lives
and haven't got half as much as what they have.
It just don't seem fair.
- So have you moved up a class now?
- That's difficult to say.
Up a class.
I suppose it feels like that to me.
No, there ain't no need for food, that's gonna be their.
Now, you've got the sense of pride,
you've got your own house.
I feel like I'm building for the future.
I've been a single parent for a long while.
I've brought them up on my own, really,
because Catherine was only two when Bill left.
It's been extremely hard and it's been,
sometimes, it's been very lonely.
- I only had to have one filling, right.
That was about the only thing that I had done.
- William, he's a computer addict.
He works in the industry
and he also constantly has a computer on indoors.
- This one's facing in the windows.
- He could have gone to university,
and he knows that and I know that,
and I do regret that for him.
But I've been there.
I can just remember I didn't wanna do that, either.
And Catherine's temping
because she wants to do a bit of travelling next year.
People say she's me reincarnated.
I mean, she looks a bit like me
and her mannerisms are exactly like me,
and she likes to enjoy herself.
- Get to aviation.
- I wanted to get...
- To walk into a relationship
with someone who's got two teenagers,
it must have been very difficult for him,
and they do clash occasionally.
I absolutely hate it because I'm just an easy-going person
and I don't like strife.
They are doing things the way I've brought them up,
which isn't the way that Glen would like things to be done,
so you've got to learn to live together in the same house.
It will always be a learning curve.
I'm a peacemaker.
- When the children
were old enough to go to school,
Sue went back to work and had a series of office jobs.
She now helps run the MA courses
in the legal faculty of the university of London.
- Still work for the college but we moved to Central London.
Now I am sort of the main administrator for the programme
instead of an assistant
and I've got a couple of people that help me with that.
Hey, could you fax that to Mary for me, please?
Thanks.
- So you like the responsibility?
- Yeah, I love the responsibility.
I think I was born for the responsibility.
Yeah, I love it.
- Well, I've never been abroad but...
- No, nor have I.
- I have, I have.
- Oh, yeah, 'cause you went on that cruise, didn't you?
- Yeah.
Once a year we go to Cornwall or Devon.
We try to find a different spot every year
and we just bring the dog.
It's just such a lovely place.
Every time you turn a corner, there's a different sight,
there's a different,
you just never know what you're gonna find.
Everything's just so beautiful.
We'd both had childhood holidays here and good memories,
and we decided to come back,
and we've been coming ever since.
It's nice for us just to be a couple for a week.
When we retire, or maybe before, if we get lucky,
then this is the sort of place we'd like to come to.
That little one there,
right in the middle nearest the beach,
that would be ideal, absolute perfect.
The perfect place.
- Vesto, vestas, vest.
Vestat.
Vestamus, vestatis, vestant.
- Here, speak up.
Fill out the gaps on the board there.
- When he was seven,
Bruce was at a preparatory boarding school.
At 14, St. Paul's in London.
- They don't sort of enforce being upper class
and things like that at St. Paul's.
They suggest that you don't have long hair
and they do get it cut if,
and they teach you to be reasonably well-mannered
but not to sniff on the poorer people.
- At 21, he was in his last year at Oxford,
reading maths.
- You can show that this is irreducible.
Then you do a transformation
on this polynomial X equal to T plus two.
- Good, that's a nice way of doing it,
particularly using Eisenstein down here.
His test is very powerful.
- Yes.
Chris Awanabe.
- Yes, sir!
- Moma Naly.
- Yes, sir! - At 28,
Bruce was teaching maths in East London.
- Well, I'll go into Africa
and try and teach people who are not civilised
to be more or less good.
- At 35, he was teaching in Silet
in Northern Bangladesh.
- And I also got the chance to learn a bit of Bangla
which is very difficult.
Not doing very well at.
- Bangladesh, Bangladesh, Bangladesh.
- Bangladesh.
- Before you do anything, you have to make sure...
- By 42, Bruce was back in the East End
running the maths department at a girls' school.
- And then after naught hours,
you can see that it would be 60 litres.
Okay, now you wanna put this information...
- At 49, he's teaching at St. Albans,
a large boys' independent school
which has girls in the sixth form.
- I sing in the choir, that happens twice a week.
On Mondays and Fridays we go to the abbey,
because in the early days, the school was in the abbey,
going back to 948.
- 948?
- Yes, so the head quite likes to say
we're in our third millennium, you know.
- So the school's over a thousand years old?
- Yes, in one form or another.
You have to make X the subject of this equation,
you gotta get X on its own.
So what's the first thing we do?
- Multiply both sides by three.
- You don't multiply by three.
- Divide by three. - Divide, sorry.
- Okay, so...
- Tell me then
what's exciting about teaching here for you.
- There is a higher academic level to teach
and then you can see pupils at a more developed level,
that flash of recognition
and then engendering their love of the subject
that I had at their age.
There is a class society,
and I think public schools may help its continuance.
So you're in the lead, you see, because here...
- Has it been a kind of compromise
of political principles for you, this?
- Well, I would say have a million angels
in front of every teacher
who's prepared to slog away at an inner-city comprehensive.
Make way, make way.
This is somebody who's prepared to turn up each day
and do that job.
Where's the graph?
- 60. - 60, right.
So when the tank is full after naught hours.
That motto water weareth away a stone
by dripping upon it, not by smashing it
was as a motto for teaching that you kept on teaching them,
and that eventually it would get through,
and the pupils would change and learn and develop and so on.
But I think in the end, the reverse happened.
That water dripping on me wore me away.
I just thought, I don't think I can do this till I'm 60,
and therefore, I'll have to do something else.
- Do your old friends
give you a hard time about what you've done?
- They certainly do.
They absolutely do.
They say, "Oh, have we joined the Tory Party,
"the golf club, the Masons?
"You're driving a much better car than you used to,"
and so on.
Well, my girlfriend is in Africa,
And I don't think I'll have another chance
of seeing her again.
- Have you got any girlfriends?
- No, no, not yet.
I'm sure it will come but not yet.
I mean, I do think a lot of people think too much about it.
I think I would very much like to,
oh, become involved in a family, my own family, for a start.
That's a need that I feel I ought to fulfil
and would like to fulfil and would do it well.
Yes, I haven't got married or whatever,
and I was supposing that that would have been something
which I hoped had happened.
- You're getting on a bit.
Are you getting worried?
- Well, not particularly.
I mean, I'm always optimistic.
I mean, who knows who I might meet tomorrow?
- And in the middle of a conversation
about something completely different,
he just asked if I'd like to marry him,
and if I hadn't been listening carefully,
I would have missed it completely.
- To love and to cherish.
- Till death us do part.
- Is this a beetroot or something?
- I think it's just a weed.
- Do you enjoy gardening?
- Well, under Penny's directions,
I do whatever she asks me.
I don't know what to do here,
what order to do things in.
She and her mother are quite good at this.
- So you're the labourer?
- Yes, I'm the unpaid labourer, the serf,
the feudal vassal or whatever.
Well, Penny will give you the correct mediaeval terms.
- We don't argue very much.
- Not really.
I mean, we haven't really had a sort of full-blown row.
- No, our arguments sort of tend to be two sentences,
and I go off and sulk for 24 hours.
- How are you doing, dear?
- Fine, thank you.
And I think the one positive influence on him,
I've stopped him apologising.
When I first knew him, he kept saying, "Sorry, sorry,"
and apologised for all sorts of things
that there was no need to apologise for.
Maybe it's just 'cause we weren't married then.
- Yeah, see, I was winning you over.
- Yeah, yeah, that's right.
- Well, you're the world's greatest cook.
- It's only pasta, wouldn't think it'll go far...
- But if you have emotional issues,
will you talk about them?
- Well, I have the usual male reticence
about that kind of thing.
Great tea.
If Penny really wanted to give me a hard time,
she'd have to say, "Talk about your feelings."
That would be worse...
- That would be
the worst thing. - Than a 24-hour sulk.
- Yeah.
- I think so, yeah.
I don't know whether they gonna move any of them...
- We may have children, I don't know.
I mean, if in seven years' time or so
we're living in a slightly bigger house with a young family,
that would be nice.
I mean, I don't want to pin all my hopes on it
and nothing happens.
We are quite old.
I can seeing bringing up, say, teenage children in your 40s
might be a bit strange.
Come on, then, Henry.
Get on.
- Is it more tiring than you thought?
- I don't think until you're doing it
you realise how sleep-deprived you get
and how totally exhausted you are
all the time for several years.
I think that came as rather a shock.
- Sometimes, I go to bed at 8:30, which is ridiculous.
In fact, I sometimes go to bed before Henry and George.
- He looks like his father, doesn't he?
- George has got the cheekbones
that run in Bruce's family.
- And what have I got?
- Uh.
Ooh, that's hard to answer, darling.
- We're at my first school,
where I was from about five to eight,
and this is where I boarded for three years.
And I can remember being happy there.
I can remember also being miserable
because I can remember crying.
- Squad, steady!
- I always seemed to be beaten,
and I never used to understand why.
- Squad, halt!
- You were here because,
what, your parents were...
- My parents were separated and were divorced.
And just to give me a stable place to be and be educated,
it was a solution to all those problems.
My heart's desire is to see my daddy
who is 6,000 miles away.
I did miss contact with my father
and, well, I say it as a joke to Penny,
time to send them boarding as I was.
And she says, "Over my dead body,"
which is, but I wouldn't want that, either.
- Five years ago,
the family moved away from the East End
to be near Bruce's new school.
- Hey, what's in.
It's very quiet, its child-friendly,
and it just feels very safe.
And that's really important when you've got small children,
that the area feels safe.
- And what can you give them that you didn't have?
- Contact with a father that is loving,
and they can realise that
and show that love to other people
and realise when they're letting
both themselves and me down.
That could be a sort of guiding light for them.
- Do you want any more children?
- Well.
- Bruce was originally talking about a cricket team.
But he's got his opening batsman,
and that I think is gonna be his lot, frankly.
- I want you to play tomorrow.
I'm not gonna drop you from sarcasm, all right?
I run one of the junior teams here, the under-13s.
And there'll be nearly 200 boys there
doing that on a Saturday
rather than other things that could waylay them.
It's that combination of playing within a team
and the ability to back each other up and form friendships
that's such a nice thing.
- Nice shot.
- At weekends, Bruce plays village cricket.
- We don't really mind who wins and loses,
we obviously prefer to win
and we go on tour every year, so we go down to Devon.
Ever such a nice bunch of mates,
and I've known some of them for 25 years.
You can play at a reasonable level till you're in your 60s.
- And what about your batting skills?
- I'm mainly a bit of a slogger,
so I tend to bat down the order, six, seven, eight.
It can be brief, but the last time I played, I got 40.
Ooh!
- Great goin'!
- Okay, from their hiding place in the bushes,
William and...
- Do you have fears for the future?
- Personally, I've kind of worried
that the boys will turn out all right.
I hope they avoid drugs.
To see them sleeping or carry them around is just fantastic,
and just the smell of them and the look of them is just,
you just want to protect them
from everything that's harmful to them.
- When you look back at yourself at seven,
can we see you now?
- I can't really recognise myself.
He looks a little bit lost and a little bit sad,
and I think I'm quite sort of surprised
to be sort of contented and reasonably happy.
- Do you have a dream?
- Well, I'd have probably liked to have played
international cricket but I just wasn't good enough.
You know, one's dreams go, and the day-to-day living
of ordinary life and family life takes over,
I think we just sort of live without our dreams.
- I don't like the big boys hitting us
and the prefects sending us out for nothing.
- When he was seven,
Paul was in care in a children's home in London.
Were you happy at the children's home in England?
- I didn't mind that, really,
'cause we didn't know what was going on
'cause we were a bit young.
Well, as far as I know, my mother and father,
well, they separated originally, I think.
They eventually got divorced.
I went to the boarding school for one year,
and then we emigrated to Australia.
- Paul settled with his father and stepmother
in a suburb of Melbourne.
What mark has it left on you
the fact that you were brought up within a bad marriage?
- The only thing I can say
that I think might have come from that
is just my lack of confidence
and being able to show my feelings, really, I suppose.
- Would you like to get married, Paul?
- No.
- Tell me why not.
- I don't like...
Say you had a wife.
They say you had to eat what they cooked you,
and say I don't like greens.
Well, I don't.
Oh, no, I prefer to be alone, really.
I can't say I don't wanna get married, 'cause I think I do,
but I wanna be happily married
and therefore, I wanna make sure, I think.
- What is it that you fell in love with?
What is it about him?
- His helplessness, I suppose.
It was the motherly instinct in me
to pick him up and cuddle him.
And he's also very good looking, I think,
but he doesn't agree with me.
In the summer he's got this cute little bum in shorts.
I mean, I can tell quite a few stories here,
but the one that really irritates me the most
is when we have an argument he says, "That's it, leave me."
And I say, "Fine, all right, I will one day."
We had our 20th wedding anniversary just before Christmas.
- Which is the life sentence.
- Yeah, everyone reckons
that we should be out of jail by now.
- To a certain extent we started thinking,
well, do we really know each other now?
Because you just get in the humdrum of going to work,
coming back home...
- Running kids here and...
- Kids here and there.
I don't think you mean to
but you probably stop thinking about each other a lot.
I find it hard to express emotion most of the time,
although I'm getting on top of that more now.
Just the simple things, to say to, sort of,
Susan, I love you, something like that.
I can tell you about it,
but I really haven't been able to say it freely to Sue.
It's a bit hard to talk about.
I did end up having to get a bit of help,
and it wasn't directly due to our relationship.
It started at work, unfortunately,
which brought my self-esteem down
which tended to affect everything else.
And I was just very fortunate
that I saw a local doctor and with her help,
I started coming back to normal thinking, probably.
I mean, I was feeling a little bit worried
about the relationship
because I felt like I hadn't progressed.
I was going backwards.
And, I mean, I still believe that.
I was thinking that why would Susan
wanna be with someone as,
sounds funny but as boring as me,
'cause there was nothing there.
I mean, what do I do?
- How do I say it?
It was a shock that he got that low
and that he doubted the relationship
because one thing I've always known
is that Paul's never doubted his love for me.
You know, it's always been there,
and I've never doubted it, either.
- Did the physical side of your marriage suffer?
- I think it did.
I think it did, really.
- For a little while.
We promised ourselves when we first got married
that we'd never stop touching
or being affectionate towards each other.
And in front of the children, we've always been,
and even now with the children,
we still embrace a lot, both Katy and Robert.
I mean...
- Katy will sometimes say, "Mother, stop it."
I was gonna be a policeman
but I thought how hard it would be to join in.
I just haven't made up my mind yet.
I was gonna be a phys ed teacher
but one of the teachers told me
that you had to get up into university.
- At 21, Paul was a junior partner
in a firm of bricklayers.
By 28, he'd gone out on his own as a subcontractor.
- I think when I started work for myself,
things were looking good for me
'cause I was out of school,
something I was very enthusiastic about.
And I was chasing the dangling carrot
but never got there 'cause, I mean, really,
I'm a worker and not a businessman.
- By the time he was 42,
Paul was doing factory work,
making signs for a plastics company.
What's the future for you at work, do you think?
- Well, I mean, the job's still there.
I've had talks with them
about whether they were ushering me out the door,
and they say they're not.
Not that I'm that old, but it's a bit of worry
about getting a full-time job with my skill levels.
- Sue had been a hairdresser
for most of her working life, but at 49,
she has a new career
as an occupational therapist in a retirement home.
- You might be in your 40's and getting older,
but you still have a lot to add
and you can learn to go in a different direction.
I call this my sea change.
- Do you have ambitions?
- Not really now.
I've been in this job 10 years
and never asked for a pay rise.
That's just what I've always been like.
- Has it affected home life at all?
- It has affected a little bit
because I'm not there at home as much as I used to be
for when Paul got home.
- It can be,
and I'm sure I'm not the only one,
it can be quite startling.
You get home and you think, there's no one here.
- When I've been here for 30 years to be home to.
- It's really different.
- Oh, good fist away by...
- By the time they were 28,
Paul and Sue had two children, Katy and Robert.
- Picked up.
- Katy did well at school
and got a place at university to study archaeology.
- They're photos of the dig in Cyprus that I went on
and we were digging in bronze age tombs
that are around the village.
- You're the first person
in the family to go to university.
Was it a struggle for you?
- It was a bit because I had to do it all by myself.
I had nobody to really help me
'cause mum and dad couldn't help me
with my essays or things like that.
- What does university mean?
I'm pretty happy with Katy
and I'm not having a go at Rob,
but I've got views for Robert,
'cause he's struggling a little bit.
- Robert has trained as a car mechanic.
- He's got reading and writing difficulties
and, I mean, he's coping with that.
We'd like to see him be a little bit more proactive
at doing literacy course now he's a bit older.
But just day-to-day troubles of making ends meet with money,
that's always hard.
- He went nuts at me for using the phone,
"No more fucking back,
"you constantly fuckin' do this all the time."
- What's Robert got that you gave him?
- Moodiness.
I think Robert's even a little bit more moody
than what I've ever been.
He's not your average relaxed 21-year-old.
- Whatcha doin'?
We only had two children, because we thought
that we couldn't love any more children
as much as we loved our two.
And now we've got our two grandchildren, we just love them.
- We love them as much, really.
- As much, yeah.
Yay!
- With Rob and Stacey,
we don't really know how long they're gonna last for
and I keep my fingers crossed they will last.
We can only hope that they work at it like we do.
- That's better, thank you.
- In their 20s,
Paul and Sue sold up, bought an old van
and travelled across Australia.
- I think it brought us closer together,
because we really got to know each other
and relied on each other so much.
- One of the most important things
we ever did with our children was spend time with them.
And particularly, when you've got holidays,
to actually, which a lot of parents do,
go camping with them.
- We've been camping there now,
we've actually went to that for 19 years,
'cause Robert was two when we first went there.
- So does this beat the old van?
- This is the Hilton compared to that old van.
- So you've got any plans
for any big trips now the children have gone?
- I think we'd like to do something again
but you need to have the finances
to support yourself for a few months.
- The monitors opened the washroom, sendin' us out,
well, there's no talking, and I wasn't talking today.
I'm more at peace around the horses and the animals.
I can be upset, I can be on edge, come down to the horses,
within three or four minutes of being here,
and I've forgotten everything,
so it does calm you down.
- So last time I came, you had the horses.
What's happened to the horses?
- Well, we gave Poykin away to some people
because it was a little bit expensive
and also the fun went out of it, basically.
- How do you get that peace now?
- Well, I think I got it through running.
- Well, most Sunday mornings, we go training.
When Paul is doing marathons,
when he's gotta run great distances,
I follow along with the bike as a bit of support
and I take drinks for him so he doesn't get dehydrated.
Something we can do together, so we do that.
We're not doing any great distances, we're just,
I've got an injured knee.
Just trying to build it up so it gets used to running again.
I did the host city marathon,
was my first marathon I did up in Sydney.
And I trialled the Olympic course, and it was open to anyone.
So I figured if you were gonna do a marathon,
that'd be the one to do.
Nearly died, but I enjoyed it.
My idea of happiness to me
is a love for life and a love for people.
- When you look back on the marriage
and the family, any regrets?
- No, we wish we'd had more children, but then who knows?
If we'd had them, might have gone, no, too many.
- We might be both in the nuthouse.
- But without a family, what have you got?
Nothing.
Well, that's the way I feel.
- More than work, more than achieving?
- Yeah, like, what you've got,
you've got nothing unless you've got family
and your health anyway.
You'd be awfully lonely without family, I think.
- Tell me, do you have any boyfriends, Suzy?
- Yes.
- Tell me about him.
- He lives up in Scotland, and I think he's 13.
- Have you got any boyfriends, Susan?
What is your attitude towards marriage for yourself?
- Well, I don't know.
I mean, I haven't given it a lot of thought,
'cause I am very, very cynical about it.
But then you get a certain amount of faith restored in it.
I mean, I've got friends,
and their parents are happily married,
and so it does put faith back into you
but me myself, I'm very cynical about it.
- When I last saw you at 21, you were nervous,
you were chain-smoking, you were uptight,
and now you seem happy.
What's happened to you over these last seven years?
- I suppose Rupert.
I'll give you some credit.
- I'm now chain-smoking.
- No, I think you can't just walk through a marriage
and think it's once you get married,
it's all gonna be roses and everything forever.
You know, you have...
Everybody has their rows but we've never yet had a row
that we haven't managed to sort out.
It's very hard to actually say what it is
that goes on between a couple,
it's either there or it's not.
We've been married 27 years now.
Any marriage has its ups and downs,
but somehow, whether it's through luck or determination,
we've worked through the difficult times.
He's just always been there for me,
and I know I can rely on him.
And he's my punch bag
in the same way as I'm probably his, but it works.
When I get married, I'd like to have two children.
I'm not very children-minded at the moment.
I don't know if I ever will be.
- What do you think about them?
- Oh, I don't like babies.
- At 28, Suzy had two sons, Thomas and Oliver.
By the time she was 34, Suzy had a daughter, Laura.
- Mummy?
- Yeah?
- I don't want to.
- So what are the children up to?
- Tom is living in London, having graduated,
and now working and living in London.
Ollie is working and living at home
and Laura is doing her AS levels.
It was difficult when they first started to move away.
All those memories of the children growing up.
It's like a closed chapter now,
'cause you can't bring those days back.
I think what I admire about the young today
is their confidence, and that's what I wished I'd had.
They just seem to take life and deal with it.
- What sort of things do you do?
- Ride, swim, play tennis, ping-pong.
And I might play croquet, anything like that.
- I did have a privileged childhood,
but you have to take responsibility for your life
somewhere along the line,
and some people take responsibility earlier than others.
I was just a bit later taking it.
Maybe now is the first time
that I actually feel happy within my own skin.
It's taken me a long time to do it,
but I actually feel
that I can accept decisions,
wrong decisions, possibly, that I've made in the past,
I am comfortable with it now.
I can live with it.
- So what's it been like for you
being in these films?
- Very difficult, very painful.
Not an experience I've enjoyed in any way.
Every seven years, it throws up issues
that I guess we all learn to put into compartments
between the seven years,
and then it all gets opened up again, and it's difficult.
We were all landed in it,
and most of us have, whatever reason,
chosen to go through with it.
I'm not an outgoing, confident person.
I like my privacy.
I don't like however many million people
picking over my life.
- And is that what they do, do you think?
- I should think for a couple of minutes, yes,
and then it's yesterday's news.
And people seem to read into what they think we all think,
which I find very hurtful, really,
'cause most of them come up with things that they think,
which is nothing like what's going through my head.
Oh, so she might be all right.
What's the point of people sort of going into people's lives
and saying, "Why do you like this?" and, "Why don't you?"
I just don't see any point in it.
- So have you had enough of being in the film?
- I mean, who knows in seven years
whether it'll be done again but this is me
saying hopefully, I'll reach my half-century next year,
and I shall bow out.
- And what about the other children,
where are they now, what are they doing?
- If I can change the world I'd change into a diamond.
I don't really think that I've done anything
you can call a great success.
- When I was born, an illegitimate child,
that something's only whispered about.
- I'm going to work in Woolworths.
At times you think Christ what have I done?
- I read the "Financial times".
- I read "The Observer" and "The Times".
It's very irresponsible because we all want more money,
as much money as we can get.
- When I grow up I want to be an astronaut
but if I can't be an astronaut,
I think I'll be a coach driver.
I tend to think most likely answer
is that I'll be wandering homeless
round the streets of London
but with a bit of luck, that won't happen.
- Is Neil still wandering alone through Britain?
Find out next week.